Planning For Financial Freedom Over 60 with Diane Watson

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:00:01

On today's show, I'm talking to Diane Watson. She's a financial advisor and author of the book she can prosper. Now, she helps many women sort out their finances as they get older to empower them. A lot of women born in the fifties, sixties, and even seventies didn't have the opportunities necessarily to secure their finances. And now they're finding themselves struggling in later life. Diane explains how they can turn things around. But before we get started, can I ask that you give us a follow on your podcast app or Instagram? Now let's get on with the podcast. Welcome to Retirement Life after 60.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:00:39

I'm your host, Siobhan Daniels. Join me on a journey to meet inspiring rebels who've redefined retirement. Together, we'll explore new passions, triumphs over challenges, and discover the vibrant possibilities of life after 60. This is about living boldly, not just ageing. So, are you ready to rebel? Last week, I spoke to Honor Marks, who's a force to be reckoned with. She's the founder of the magical midlife membership and is passionate about helping women to redefine what it means to be older and bolder. She helps women to find their inner passions and to reignite their lives in their fifties and sixties and beyond. If you've not heard our chat, please give it a listen.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:01:22

You can find it on any podcast platform or through my website, retirementrebel dot co dot UK. Thank you, Diane, for agreeing to chat to me on the podcast. Because finances for women are so important, aren't they?

Diane Watson [: 00:01:35

They're really important. And so many women are very fearful of understanding their finances, and they needn't be. And that's really why I wanted to write the book, to show women that it's actually not as difficult as they might think it is.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:01:50

Why do you think it is women are so fearful of sorting out their own finances, do you think, sort of historically to do with joint bank accounts?

Diane Watson [: 00:01:59

I think there's a number of reasons, actually, Siobhan. I think that a lot of girls don't think they're very good at maths, or they maybe get the message at school that they're not as good at maths as boys are. So they have this innate fear that maths equals money equals finance. So they're not going to be very good at it or very good with numbers. I think a lot of it is to do with what happens in our childhood. So a lot of the subliminal messages we get when we're little girls around the fact that money is what men manage, you know, I need to ask your dad about that, spending that money. So a lot of us get the idea that men are the people that sort money out and it's not a girls thing. And then I think some of it's about the relationships that we get into and who maybe controls the purse strings.

Diane Watson [: 00:02:46

So a lot of women, they kind of abdicate responsibility for that aspect of their lives and just let someone else sort it out for them, often with disastrous consequences, actually.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:02:59

How did you get into finances then? What's your background? Tell me a little bit about yourself.

Diane Watson [: 00:03:03

So my background. So I'm 30 years financial advisor, but before that I worked in public relations and then I was in sales and marketing for a big training company. But when I was training a lot of my clients were in financial services. So some of the big organisations and I was very interested in it, I think also because my mother gave me very strong messages as a girl around the fact that my dad wasn't reliable with money. My father was quite a militant trade unionist. He was a contract joiner, so he was often out on strike or between jobs. So my mum took herself back to college and became a teacher and then a head teacher. So she always gave me those messages that, you know, finance is something that you should make sure you understand yourself.

Diane Watson [: 00:03:54

So I was very interested in it and it was really as a consequence of having the children that I wanted to do something that, you know, fitted in with being a mom, but also something that I was quite passionate about and that was how I got into it, actually.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:04:08

Did you find that it was majority, the majority were men that were dealing in finances in those days and were, you know, the financial advisors?

Diane Watson [: 00:04:17

Yes. So when I started off, the number of women in the financial world were quite small. I mean, still relatively, I think we're about 17% of the advisor population, so we're still lagging way behind. But in those days, yes, I mean there were hardly any women and lots of women will say that when they used to have meetings with their male advisor, he would talk to the man and they would feel almost excluded from the conversation even if they were the main breadwinner, which is ironic really, isn't it?

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:04:50

Do you think though that, I mean, there's a generation of women, well, generations of women who couldn't work unless their husbands said they could work. So it was hard for them to provide for themselves financially, independently, wasn't it?

Diane Watson [: 00:05:02

Yeah, very much so. And I mean they weren't, you know, women couldn't have bank accounts until, in their own name, until in the seventies. So we've always.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:05:10

That still blows my mind.

Diane Watson [: 00:05:12

I know. So there's always been that kind of thing around men and money. But I'm not just talking about women who maybe have given up work to bring up their children. You know, I work with lots of highly successful businesswomen, women in the professions, and a lot of them still do give a lot of responsibility to their finances, to their partners, rather than, you know, take control themselves.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:05:39

Yeah. What do you think about joint bank accounts?

Diane Watson [: 00:05:42

Well, I mean, I'm divorced now, but I always had a joint bank account, you know, I didn't have a problem with that. Well, I didn't have a problem with it until my marriage ended.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:05:53

Until you did have a problem.

Diane Watson [: 00:05:55

Until I did have a problem, yes, for sure. I think it was my mum that said to me, you need, you know, you must have a joint bank account. But I always had my own bank account as well. So, you know, the joint bank account ran all the things that we needed to commit to together. And then I always had my own bank account as well.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:06:11

That's interesting. Why was that again? Because you were keeping a little bit aside for yourself for a rainy day or just in case.

Diane Watson [: 00:06:18

I think it was what my mum told me.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:06:20

Yeah, your mum sounds awesome.

Diane Watson [: 00:06:22

Do you know what my mum, when I look back now, my mum was really awesome, you know, because she was born into such a poor family. You know, there were nine of them and she was the eldest. She made lots of sacrifices to sort of support the family and she was terrified of being in a state of poverty. So she worked two jobs before I was born so that they could. They saved 50% for the deposit on their house, you know, which is back then. Yeah, she used to save all the time. I mean, they weren't. My parents were very, you know, ordinary working class people, but my mum was terrified of dying and not being able to pay for the funeral, so there were people knocking at the door every week, insurance companies that don't even exist anymore, like the Salvation army.

Diane Watson [: 00:07:11

And they'd be, you know, she'd be giving them a few pounds. So never living beyond a means what.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:07:17

To make sure that she could pay for a funeral?

Diane Watson [: 00:07:20

Yeah. Yeah, it's quite big things. Quite a big thing. And making sure that, you know, we were going to be okay because, you know, dad's work was intermittent. He was on strike quite a lot when I was. When I was growing up.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:07:34

Now, the importance of providing for your future financially gives you that empowerment, doesn't it, to make decisions and when you retire for your pension age, there are a massive group of women who, who've been caught in the WASPI women against state pension increases, the Waspy campaign, because they thought that they were making provisions for when they retired and when they were in the sixties and then last minute they got told, oh no, you're not getting your pension at 60, you'll get it at 66. What's your feelings about that?

Diane Watson [: 00:08:12

I mean, I think it's a tragedy. I mean I've read lots of stuff about it. I mean I myself am 65 and I'm still not getting my state pension. And of course I was expecting it at 60. So, you know, all my cohorts, all my friends from school are in the same situation. For a lot of people, their state pension is a massive part of their security in retirement. You know, it's awful and it's only going to get worse actually, Siobhan, because the state retirement age will definitely increase, you know, because people are living longer and they're having to push that age back so that they can afford to pay everybody their state pension.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:08:52

So when should people start thinking about making provisions so that in their sixties, seventies, eighties and beyond they're going to be able to be financially fluid and be able to have options in their retirement, which, which is what good finances gives you, isn't it?

Diane Watson [: 00:09:10

Yeah. I mean what we're trying to encourage women and men to do is to make sure that they've got things. They've got, they're financially okay so that they've got choice. You know, if they want to retire earlier, they can do, if they want to do what you've done, which is incredible. They can do. But in order to do those things, you need to have something set aside and it's never too early to start really.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:09:35

I mean I was lucky that I had my BBC pension.

Diane Watson [: 00:09:38

Yes.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:09:39

And my savings. So I was able to make a decision to actually live with far less because I was working long hours and earning lots of money and buying lots of stuff and cluttering up my life but not happy. And I found actually I don't, I spend far less and I'm far happier. Do you think sometimes people get bogged down too much with the finances and stress themselves out thinking they need so much more than they actually do?

Diane Watson [: 00:10:06

Yeah, I think when people are working, I mean, obviously they are spending. I mean, in some ways it's almost to comfort themselves because they're working so hard, they want to reward themselves. And, you know, you're absolutely right. We all buy I mean, not you now possibly, but we all buy a lot of stuff and some of the stuff we buy because it makes us or we think it makes us happy. And it's a kind of contrast to the sort of the treadmill that we're all on when we're working. You know, we need these lovely things to make it all palatable really. And the reality is that we don't need as much.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:10:40

It's a short term fix really, isn't it? Yeah.

Diane Watson [: 00:10:43

And I mean, with, you know, now that we've got Amazon, you can literally click a button and the next minute there's something arriving on your doorstep. So, you know, we, I think we're all far more profligate than we used to be. And I think that's why people of my parents generation were not wasteful. They put money aside, you know, they were more careful, therefore they didn't earn as much, but they saved more.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:11:11

So talk me through if somebody in their twenties, thirties now is thinking of, you know, they want to retire 55, 60 and not wait for their state pension age, which will probably be 80 in the future, what should they be doing?

Diane Watson [: 00:11:26

So if they're employed, which lots of people are, they need to be joining the scheme that's offered by their employer, which, you know, every employer has to offer a scheme and you'd be surprised how many people don't join or they opt out because they think, well, you know, that's all years down the line and I'll deal with that later.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:11:46

But for a lot of people, it's, they can't afford though, even those small amounts at the moment with the cost of living. But you think they should still be doing that.

Diane Watson [: 00:11:55

And that is a challenge. I think doing something is better than doing nothing because you're going to get a contribution by your employer that you're not going to necessarily get if you don't contribute yourself. And I always remember, so my daughter's godfather worked his whole life for british gas and I always remember, and he had a lovely final salary pension scheme. But I always remember him telling me that when he started work at 16, quite a lot of his salary was quite a big contribution and he didn't really want to pay it. But of course, there are professions where there is no choice about whether you join the scheme, you just join the scheme, you know, years later, even though it was a stretch at the start, he said, I'm so glad that I did because he retired at 50, back when you could. So I think the people that join final salary schemes where there is no choice about joining them, which are people like teachers, nurses, doctors, local government, they just accept.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:12:54

And me, that's when I'm lucky. I mean, it was the golden ticket. When I look now at the pensions that are on offer, at least I'm guaranteed a pension every month until the day I die. So, you know, final salary. I know definitely when I was in my twenties, I was a nurse for nine years before I started working for the BBC. And I didn't give a monkey's really, about pensions and retiring, and it was just so far ahead in the future. So I think really I was lucky I joined the BBC and had to join the pension scheme because I don't think I really would have made any provision for getting old.

Diane Watson [: 00:13:30

And I think this is the challenge now because so many companies have closed their final salary pension schemes. I mean, obviously the public sector still have theirs, some companies do in the private sector, but generally those lovely schemes that meant that people could retire and be financially okay, have disappeared, you know, and what people are left with is something that pales into insignificance, really, but it is still worth starting. The sooner you start, the less you have to make contributions you have to make.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:14:04

I mean, all this financial advice for me, I feel a little bit uncomfortable in the sense of there will be people out there who just do not have the finances to make those contributions they might want to, and it will make them fearful of when they retire and when they're older, when they're in the sixties and seventies, because they have not been able to make those provisions. What can they do? How can they turn the finances around?

Diane Watson [: 00:14:32

Well, I mean, anything that they do is better than doing nothing. So even if you're putting a small amount, maybe not even into a pension, but saving it, maybe into something like a cash Isa, just trying to build something, if you can, and I totally accept what you're saying, that not everybody can do that. I mean, those people that can't do that will obviously need to fall back on other things when they're older. I mean, fortunately, at the minute, the state pension is for a lot of people. If they're a couple and they've got full state pension entitlement, you're looking at sort of 26,000 pounds a year. That's without having done anything else. So that's not an insignificant amount of money. I mean, obviously very few of us are ever.

Diane Watson [: 00:15:23

Well, I don't know anybody as well off in retirement as we are when we're working, because obviously you can't be, but with the work, with the people that I see, I mean, I was with a client yesterday and he was saying, yeah, I'm managing okay with what I've got. Like you've said, people don't maybe want, they're not as frivolous with their expenditure. They're much more living within their means possibly than they were when they had a big salary.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:15:51

I talked to a lot of women, especially since I started this podcast and wrote my book Retirement Rebel, who are repurposing their lives in their late fifties and in their early sixties. And a lot of them, one of their big fears, starting out on their own because they don't think they've got enough money. So they stay in situations that really they don't want to be in. What advice would you give to them?

Diane Watson [: 00:16:19

Well, I mean, that's, I mean, that's, it's really important. And I know that being fearful of money, not being aware of your situation, keeps a lot of women stuck in unhealthy relationships, you know, for sure. Having said that, I think the fastest age for marriage breakdown is the people, is women over 50. You know, more and more women are deciding that they're not going to stay in a relationship that's not working for them and are being brave enough to make those decisions. So I think for anybody who feels, you know, that they want to make some changes, the first thing to do is to sit down with somebody and understand what your situation would look like, you know, what those numbers would look like. And often they're not, you know, the fear is worse than the reality, if that makes sense.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:17:09

Yes. Yeah.

Diane Watson [: 00:17:11

You know, the reality that they are probably going to be okay, but if they've got this big fear and they don't actually, you know, understand what's going on below the bonnet, then they often are not in that situation where they have the confidence to do that.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:17:26

But I think a lot of women like you say, that are in their fifties and sixties, that they are. The high number of women now that are divorcing and going out on their own were in those relationships in the days when they didn't have control over the fight finances, where they couldn't get a bank account, where they couldn't necessarily get a job without the husband's permission at some stage. So it is pretty scary to go out and actually having to be starting from scratch and learning about finances.

Diane Watson [: 00:17:57

Yeah, I mean, that is scary. And I've done quite a lot of work over the years with divorcees, mainly women, you know, where suddenly we've had to sort of help them understand how things are going to work. I think that one of the, you know, the most important things is that you get good legal advice because a lot of women are not really aware of what they're entitled to and what their outcomes are going to be. And often if they are aware of that, that makes them more inclined to take some action, you know, because they understand that things that, I mean, you know, the rules are pretty clear. You know, if you're married for more than seven years, including maybe a period of cohabitation, then it's a 50 50 division of assets. So it's much more favourable than it used to be back in the nineties.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:18:45

Yeah, when I split up, we weren't married, but we've been together a number of years and we had a child. I made this presumption that there was this common law wife, this was what we all used to bandy around and talk about. And I was thinking, you know, I'll be fine, it doesn't matter. But actually it transpired. Unless we were married in those days, I don't know what the law is now because I'm on my own, but unless we were married, I was entitled to very, very little. And most of what I got I had to prove that I'd put into the relationship. And it was a pretty scary time because I honestly believed. Common law wife, you were covered, you were fine.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:19:23

But that's not the case. No.

Diane Watson [: 00:19:25

I mean, in the book we take sort of key topics and one of my big passions is cohabiting relationships and what that means, because, you know, more and more people are cohabiting, fewer people are getting married. Married. But there is no such thing even now as a common law wife.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:19:41

So women, people still think that. You'd be surprised if you go out on the street and ask. So many people think there is.

Diane Watson [: 00:19:48

Yeah, they do, and it doesn't exist. So, you know, for example, if you're living in your partner's house, most of the assets that were brought into that relationship were his. You're in quite a vulnerable situation. I mean, there are instances where you can make a claim for money because of financial need, but legally you're on, you know, you're on a pretty sticky wicket. And it's really important that women understand that. It's why, you know, in some ways, it's better to be married than to co have it at the moment.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:20:23

But I do know of women who have been married for years, over 30 years, and their husband's been in charge of the finances, they've just gone along with it and enjoyed it and enjoyed the lifestyle and maybe signed bits of paper sometimes that the husband's put in front of them, and then the world crashes and they end up getting divorced and they find out that they're entitled to very little because of things they may have agreed or signed without thinking, because they were in a long term relationship. Bringing up children.

Diane Watson [: 00:20:54

Yes. And some of that at that point is around the advice that you get, and it's also around what may have gone on that you weren't aware of. So, you know, getting to understand that is really so important, because I've been in situations, you know, with people, myself, where the man has been very determined that he's going to try and share as little as he possibly can get away with. But legally, we are equal in that respect. So it's really important that you get somebody who understands what's going on to act for you and try and give you the best possible outcome.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:21:35

One thing I find alarming still is that finances aren't taught in schools properly. I mean, I would have loved to have been taught just the simple banking, you know, getting out of banking accounts, savings, pensions, taxes, all sorts of things, which I've learned. I'm still not particularly good, if I'm honest, with finances. When I have it, I spend it. When I don't, I don't, you know, and I think. How do you feel about the. The prospect of it being on the curriculum and young people being taught about finances?

Diane Watson [: 00:22:07

Yes. So I'm a principal partner with an organisation called St James's Place. That's where my advisory business is. And we run a financial education programme for schools.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:22:20

Right.

Diane Watson [: 00:22:20

Because we believe that children should understand the basics of finance. And so I agree with you that we need to get children to engage and understand at a much younger age.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:22:34

But do you think they would do? Because, like I say, when I was younger, I didn't. I wasn't bothered about pensions and taxes. I mean, it. How can you make them understand that this is one of the really important building blocks for the rest of their life?

Diane Watson [: 00:22:49

I think you've got to. You've got to try and engage them in a way that they can connect with, haven't you? I'm a passionate believer in sharing stories, because I think stories are the means by which people can identify in them themselves, because numbers are not a mass. They're not everybody's cup of tea, really, are they?

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:23:08

No.

Diane Watson [: 00:23:08

You know, they can appear so. And, you know, when I was thinking about writing my book, and I was talking to Debbie Gilbert, who you met, you know, I said, I don't want it to be a book that's full of numbers and talks about tax breaks and tax relief and all that sort of thing, because that's not.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:23:26

That's giving me a headache already.

Diane Watson [: 00:23:28

Exactly. Exactly. I thought if we could share some really interesting stories that people could think, oh, that's. That I'm that person. I'm that cohabiting person, you know, or I'm that person that hasn't put enough money aside, or I'm that person, then they would be able to. And, in fact, somebody did call me and say, you know, the story you told me about, and it was about co owning a business with somebody who, you know, she said, I nearly ended up as a case study in your book.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:23:59

Oh, gosh.

Diane Watson [: 00:23:59

Because something happened and I'd thought about what you said. I think it's making it simple and understandable and giving people stories that they can connect to and relate to.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:24:12

I think what is good about my book says she unashamedly plugging retirement rebel. But it is, because it is my story, it's my truth. And there are so many women out there who say that they would love to do what I'm doing, travelling around in my motorhome and living in it and. But they think, what about the house? What about the mortgage? What about the bills and everything? And to see that I have got rid of everything, my belongings and a house and I've chosen to put all my eggs in one basket, really? And it's possible, and I'm happy. It makes them think outside the box. And I think sometimes we need to rip up the rule books and think, we don't need to spend the money the way we've been spending it. We don't need to necessarily stay in one place all the time. And I think that is helping them make decisions financially.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:25:03

They think, oh, we need to rent out the house. No, you don't get rid of the house. What would you say? Do you find that scary, that they don't have bricks and mortar, though, to fall back on?

Diane Watson [: 00:25:13

I mean, obviously, you know, when you, when you do what you've done, which is incredible, and, I mean, you know, I'm loving what you're doing. I follow you all the time. You know, you are. You are adding an element of risk into your life, right. Because you're reliant solely on your. On Dora the explorer and you haven't got anything else to fall back on. But, you know, but aren't you just.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:25:31

Reliant on bricks and mortar with a house? I mean, that could burn down or you could get subsidence. It could, you know.

Diane Watson [: 00:25:37

Yeah, and absolutely all of those things. But generally, property over time is an appreciating asset. The problem is it's a very expensive asset because, you know, you've got your council tax. There's always jobs that need doing, you know, leaks that need repairing, all sorts, gardening, you know, there's a whole manner of cost involved.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:25:57

So you end up existing because of that cost, not living.

Diane Watson [: 00:26:01

You do.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:26:01

And that's my big bugbear. That's what I'm trying to. I want to gather together a community of retirement rebels who are all giving up the bricks and mortar and hitting the road and just. I don't know, I just feel we're all bogged down with massive mortgages and it just seems sad to me.

Diane Watson [: 00:26:18

I think. I mean, you know, you've hit a really good point there. When I bought my first house in 1984, it cost double my earning, double my income.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:26:27

My first house was ten and a half thousand.

Diane Watson [: 00:26:30

Yeah, I think mine was something like 16,000 and I was earning eight and a half thousand. So the multiples now are so big, aren't they? You know, so many people have to take on so much debt. Obviously, they take on debt if they go to university and then they take on more debt when they buy a house. And then there's all the costs, because a house is an income draining asset, for sure. Costs a lot of money. And people don't often factor in the fact that there's all the stuff that needs to be done to a house because they don't sort of stand still, do they? You know, over time, you need to replace windows and, you know, all sorts of things that you have to do when you own a property. So for you, you've got rid of all of that stuff. All you've got to do is keep your van on the road, make sure it's road worthy and, you know, it's going to take you from a to.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:27:20

B. I've just had to spend, though, what, 1300 pounds, getting a new campbell and pump and things. You know, there are still expenses, but the level of the expenses means that I'm able to live, I'm able to just enjoy life a lot more than, you know. I had a, what you call it, a drain in my garden within the parameters of my garden. So I was responsible, you know, if that backed up from on the street and things like that. So there was always that pressure of, I could have a massive bill that I'd have to pay. And now, I don't know, it's just the way I like living, really. I suppose I like that level of risk.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:27:59

But I just think you say a house is an asset, but it's an asset in one way, but then it's. It's not assisting you to live your life properly. And it's because we've. We've told ourselves, this is what we need to do, this is how we need to live. Are we getting it wrong financially? Totally wrong. Can we turn it on its head?

Diane Watson [: 00:28:19

Well, I think that in the UK, we are definitely of the mindset that owning our own home is very important. I mean, unlike the rest of Europe, where people rent. And the challenge there is that, you know, the way that the. You're more vulnerable as a tenant in the UK, you have less security of tenure than you do abroad. So if things like that could be resolved, that would mean that people might be more likely to take the money out of their house, because for a lot of people, most of the money that they've built up over their working life is in their bricks and mortar.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:28:57

And most of them don't get to enjoy that because they then hand it on to the next generation. I just. I don't know, I think my. I'm wired differently when it comes to finances and I do worry a lot of my family and friends because they wish that I had a bit more security. But it just frustrates me that I see so many of my friends, dear friends, living in lovely houses, but then not really being able to afford to do much else.

Diane Watson [: 00:29:26

No, well, I absolutely hear you. And that is the case, you know, lots of people are saddled down, saddled in expensive houses, you know, that are still expensive to run, but then you're not earning the same amount of income to be able to afford to run them, because when you retire, you know, even if you retire on a very good pension, you're never going to be in the same situation as when you were working. That's a fact. You know, even if you got an amazing final salary pension scheme, it's never going to be the same as the money that you were earning when you were. When you were working, but then you're not.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:30:03

Your expenditure isn't as much because you can batch cook and you're not getting the coffee going into work every morning. There's all sorts of things where you can recoup that kind of money. But. So talk me through a best case scenario of providing for your old age. When do you start?

Diane Watson [: 00:30:22

What do you do?

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:30:23

How do you do it?

Diane Watson [: 00:30:24

I mean, obviously you can factor in your property. So lots of my clients will say to me when I retire, I will be selling my house and I will be downsizing and I will be using the equity that I release to enjoy my lifestyle. So the starting point for most people is what do I need? Imagine you're 60 today, or 65 or whenever it is, 55 at the moment is the earliest you can retire and take pension benefits. So what we do with a lot of people is work back from. What would that look like? What would the numbers need to be? Where is that money that you need to have going to come from? Well, I've got my state pension, I've got some pension from here, I've got some savings. I'm going to release some money out of my house. For a lot of people, the numbers are doable. They can work towards something.

Diane Watson [: 00:31:15

I think not having a clue and hoping it's going to be okay is not a good outcome for most people.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:31:23

Oh, right, that's where I've gone wrong, you know?

Diane Watson [: 00:31:27

Well, you haven't gone wrong because you've taken a different approach, haven't you? You know, you've met, you've gone off and done something that is working for you. And obviously, as you said, you've got the benefit of having the final salary pension scheme that you contributed to. But I think it's never too early, if you want to, even in your twenties, to say, I know I'm going to retire at this age and this is what I think in today's money. This is what I need, and then we can work back and show you how you're going to get there.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:31:58

But that's an important thing. You said in today's money, and I remember in the eighties when interest rates were phenomenally high and then the mortgage rates and people losing their homes. So that's what makes me fearful when you're putting all your security for your old age just around finances, because none of us know really what's going to happen with those finances and with the cost of living. So you can be 20 now, providing for when you're 60, and then everything's completely different.

Diane Watson [: 00:32:32

Yeah, absolutely. But you do generally people have to do something. Yeah, because doing nothing is not a good plan, really, is it? You know, whatever you're doing is better than not doing anything at all.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:32:47

So helping women with the finances is basically empowering them, isn't it?

Diane Watson [: 00:32:51

Yeah, it's getting them to feel engaged with their own financial situation. And with that comes confidence. It makes them empowered. If they're in a different. For example, we talked about if they're in a difficult relationship or if maybe they'd like to retire sooner than they think they can, or maybe they want to go off and do what you've done. That's having the information around their situation and their numbers gives them confidence sometimes to do something that, you know, they wouldn't otherwise do.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:33:25

Now, you said your book's got case studies in of various women to be able to help people with their finances. What other elements are in the book that will give them the tools to be financially secure?

Diane Watson [: 00:33:37

So the book takes the reader on an age journey. So for the different phases in women's lives, there are some things to think about. When they're in their twenties, thirties, forties, we point them in terms of the kind of things that they need to be thinking about at that age. There is space in the book to make notes, to sort of write things in that are relevant to them. And then the case studies illustrate various things, various points, different people's situations, things that some people have done. You know, we've got one of the case studies where the girl was very determined she wanted to retire as soon as possible and the kind of things that she did. And actually, you know, she's, she still has a house at the minute, but possibly not for much longer, you know, and she's gone from being an accountant to being a gardener. You know, for her, being able to have a choice about doing something very different was something that was important to her, you know, getting out of the rat race, really, and living a more simple life.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:34:40

There are a lot of people who are in their sixties and seventies and even beyond who are finding that they're having to go back to work because they can't balance the books, the finances aren't enough. And my heart goes out to them, especially when they feel that they provided all their life for their pension and for their retirement and they're having to go to work. That's a difficult situation, isn't it?

Diane Watson [: 00:35:06

Yeah. I mean, the cost of living crisis has certainly not helped Siobhan. So a lot of people, I was just reading in, I think it was in the Sunday Times, a lot of people retired before that happened. And now they're four or five years on and they're realising that they can't manage on what they thought they would manage because obviously inflation's been higher. Inflation's gone much higher than it was for, you know, for the previous 15 years that impacts on prices of everything, and people are finding that they're not, you know, they haven't got enough.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:35:42

Yeah. So what advice would you give to them with their finances?

Diane Watson [: 00:35:46

Well, I mean, obviously they, they need to ideally make sure, sort of sit down, have a look at what's coming in, what's going out. And if it's not, you know, if it's not sufficient, then I guess they do have to think about supplementing their income. We've got lots of women, I think the fastest growing. So more entrepreneurs than ever are females. So women are really very adaptable, and we're seeing lots of women develop, sort of create side hustles. It's not necessarily sort of working in the traditional sense that we think of, but where they can supplement their life by sort of, you know, creating these little businesses for themselves that maybe are their passion projects.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:36:26

Is that older women?

Diane Watson [: 00:36:27

It's across the piece, really. You know, it's across the piece. I'm really amazed at how many women I've met in the last, I don't know, five or six years who have got all sorts of little things that they're doing on the side. Some of those women not actually working full time, but, you know, they've set up little businesses that, you know, are making a difference financially, for sure.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:36:51

When we started this, this conversation, you were talking about your mum and the advice that she gave you and things that have stuck in your mind. What kind of an influence do you think parents have when, when the children watch the way that they spend money? I know, for example, I. I do fritter my money. I do, you know, stuff really isn't important to me. So if I've got it and I can enjoy it, I'll spend it. Whereas my daughter is a lot more frugal. She's more sensible. She's got a big mortgage and her house.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:37:21

You know, I think it's almost like she doesn't want to be like I was.

Diane Watson [: 00:37:26

Well, I mean, we do definitely learn from our parents, for sure, and we can learn in a positive towards way or on away from way. So if we see our parents behaving around money in a way that we think isn't the way we want to behave, then we may set off on a different tack. You know, we may say, I don't want to be like that. I want to have a different outcome for myself, you know, maybe particularly if things were very, very tough financially or if we witness our mother not being engaged with her own finances and then seeing what happens, you know, if our mother. If your mother's then saying, look, you know, if you don't want to do what I did, because this is what happened to me. They can be messages that make us behave differently. I think our children do, you know, they're very aware of what we do and how we behave, aren't they?

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:38:12

For sure, yeah, definitely.

Diane Watson [: 00:38:14

For me with my mom, you know, this idea that you don't spend what you haven't got. I mean, I'm always shocked when people spend more than they earn and put it onto credit cards, and then the credit card bills are expensive and the debt's rolling up because they're not clearing it. And that was a message that was very strong when I was growing up by both my parents, that you only spend what you've got, you don't spend more.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:38:38

Some people, though, live their whole life on credit cards, don't they? That's the only way they can afford to live.

Diane Watson [: 00:38:45

Yeah, it is. But some of those people, for some people, it's about buying things that you don't really need and putting them onto credit cards, isn't it? You know, people have so much stuff now, don't they?

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:38:57

I know, I know. How important do you think it is for youngsters to open bank accounts?

Diane Watson [: 00:39:02

I mean, both my kids had bank accounts when they were at school, and they had. They both had sort of jobs that they did, and they earned pocket money. So I think getting your children used to budgeting and being responsible for their own money is important. Both my children went to uni, but they did it differently. My son was sponsored through university and lived at home, so he managed to save quite a lot of money. My daughter went to university and worked to make sure that she'd got enough money. So getting your children used to living within their means is quite important.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:39:41

I know. I think my daughter saw me fluctuate between sort of living between my means, living off credit cards at different stages, depending where I was in my life and where we were living. I always tried to live in areas that were really good. So she went to the good schools, but that would stretch me financially to do that. But I felt it was worth it. But I then feel I made a lot of sacrifices in the things that I wanted to do in life and what I wanted to spend money on, which is now why I'm being in my old age, more selfish. And it's about me, and I'm spending the money on me and I'm having a good time and I think a lot of people want to do that. When they repurpose, they think, what do I want to do now? You know, where do I want to go? What do I want to spend my money on? It's all right if you've got a good pension because you've got those choices, but if you haven't got a good pension or a good income, it's very difficult in old age, especially as you've just said, the cost of living is going up.

Diane Watson [: 00:40:41

Yeah, I mean, and we're living longer, right. So it's a double whammy. I mean, I remember when my grandmother died in 1966 and she was 66 and we all thought she'd lived to a good old age. You know, that's a year year older than I am now. And that doesn't feel like a good old age to me. My mother's 92. My father passed away last year at the age of 93, you know, so a lot of people are going to be longer retired than they actually worked.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:41:10

Yeah, but that's the whole point for me, why I'm doing this podcast, because I kind of think often we're sort of 50 plus and it's a, you know, then you're on the slippery slope. But I think those years need highlighting. We need to talk about it. We need to talk that we will be spending money for another 1020, 30, 40 years, maybe 50 years. And it is an important time to think about our finances because really, I thought once you retire, you get your pension and you're sorted for your finances, but often that's when the problems start.

Diane Watson [: 00:41:42

Yeah, because a lot of people retire with an insufficient pension in the first place and then they're trying to eke it out, aren't they, for as long as possible. I mean, the trend that I'm seeing is that a lot of my clients are working longer, not shorter, particularly where there's a choice to do that. Obviously we've got massive stuff around age discrimination now, so, you know, you're not able to say to people, you've got to go if people want to carry on. And lots of people that I know, you know, are still working in their sixties because they enjoy it actually, not because of the financial side of things, but because they have a job that they find rewarding and they feel engaged and they like meeting with other people and they obviously have holidays and all those sorts of things. But maybe they don't work. You know, maybe they work less, maybe three days, four days a week, but they still want to carry on working because they can see how long potentially they've got to live in retirement.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:42:42

Well, I've absolutely loved talking to you about the finances and it is important. I know it's important. I do need to get my head. I'll be 65 next. It's about time I really got a grip of my finances. But before you go, there's one question which I ask every one of my guests. This podcast is called, as you know, retirement life after 60. And I'm a retirement rebel.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:43:05

So I want to ask you, when's the last time that you felt like a rebel or when was the last time you were rebellious?

Diane Watson [: 00:43:13

Oh, I feel I've. Well, I've just been on a rewilding retreat, Siobhan, amazing district. And so I went into Ullswater last weekend, which was incredibly cold. I've never done it before. I went with a group of ladies from Yorkshire and we did meditation and we hiked up a mountain and we did all sorts of things. So that last weekend actually was the last time that I felt like a retirement rebel.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:43:43

What did you feel like after you'd done your cold water dip?

Diane Watson [: 00:43:46

I felt incredible. I felt so proud of myself because I can swim, I'm not a great swimmer is something that, you know, I'd never thought I'd ever do. And I know that, you know, lots of people are getting into cold water swimming and we see the benefits of it. I absolutely will be doing it again for sure.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:44:06

Well, I bought my daughter for Christmas at cold water tub, so she's doing them every day. And I was with her for a while over Christmas. And every day we did the cold water dip. And as people know who follow me, me on Instagram, I'm any opportunity, and I'm in the cold water. I'm in the sea. I was in Orkney a few weeks ago and I was swimming in the sea there in November. But I find it very empowering. I go to a good place.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:44:32

Is that how you felt?

Diane Watson [: 00:44:34

Yeah, definitely. And it enhances the dopamine in our brain, doesn't it? So it gives us that kind of feel good factor that we, you know, that we often need. So, I mean, better to be doing that than, I don't know, something else, I guess. So, yeah. I felt really, really naughty last weekend for doing all these things that I've never done before. And I think when you're older, I mean, I feel. I personally feel very young for my age. I feel that I don't do, I don't conform to the stereotypical 65 year old woman.

Diane Watson [: 00:45:06

I'm very open to.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:45:08

I need to interject there because one of the things that is important to me is you say that you don't feel old and you feel young. And I think that's the kind of narratives that we've all grown up with about we have to say we're young at heart, but you can be old and feel old because old is good.

Diane Watson [: 00:45:28

Yes.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:45:29

You don't have to put young there. And also the stereotypical 64 of 65 year old. That's, again, what society is telling us, what they think we should be doing or we should look like, or we should say, and we need to take control back again. I feel and say, this is what 64, 65 looks like. This is what we're doing. I don't need to be younger, you know, this is how we feel. We feel old at heart because old at heart is good.

Diane Watson [: 00:46:00

No, I totally understand what I said. I absolutely do. I do.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:46:05

Because I used to say I feel young at heart, and actually, I stop myself from saying it now. Occasionally I'll say it and I go, no, no, no. I mean old at heart because old is good.

Diane Watson [: 00:46:15

I totally, I totally get that. And I agree with you. You know, I think there is a lot of ageism around, isn't there? Generally, yeah.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:46:23

And also, I love the fact that you went and did that wilding retreat with a bunch of women, because this podcast is all about building a community and empowering women. And everything that you've talked about today and what you say about your rebellious weekend last weekend just fills my heart because that's what I want this platform to be somewhere that we can all just talk and show that we're living vibrant lives when we're 60, 70, 80 and beyond. So I've got to thank you so much for joining me and chatting with me on the podcast today. I've thoroughly enjoyed it.

Diane Watson [: 00:46:56

Well, it's been great to catch up with you again. I hopefully see you when you're back in Yorkshire.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:47:03

I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Diane Watson, the financial advisor and author of the book she can prosper just as much as I did. She's got so many good tips about how women can empower themselves financially to ensure that they feel more secure as they get older. I learned that we need to encourage girls to take more ownership of their finances and to stop them thinking that money's something that men manage. It is changing, I know, but there's still a very long way to go if women are to feel financial, financially equal in society. I also took away from our discussion that the rise in state pension age means that women need to think even more about getting their finances right from an early age so that they've got choices when they get old and hit their sixties, seventies, eighties and beyond. Next week I've the pleasure of chatting to Karen Wright. She's a former great British Bake off contestant and she has her own cookbook out called Meals on the move. We talked about how life can find new meaning in your sixties and you can actually redefine who you are when you discover the confidence to stop self limiting and to try something new like she did.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:48:13

I hope you enjoy it. Thank you so much for joining me on today's retirement Life after 60. I'm truly grateful for your time and your willingness to embark on this journey with me. If today's conversation sparks something within you, or if you've your own rebel story to share, I'd love to hear from you. Please reach out through our social media channels or email and let's keep the conversation going. Email us on podcastetirementrebel dot co dot UK and remember, if you found value in our time together today, consider sharing this episode with a friend who might also enjoy and benefit from our retirement rebel community. Spreading the word helps us grow and continue to challenge the narrative around life after 60. All of our details can be found on Retirement Rebel dot co dot UK.

Siobhan Daniels [: 00:49:06

Retirement Life after 60 is written and hosted by me, Siobhan Daniels, and produced by the incredibly talented Matt Cini. Join me again next week for another episode. Until then, keep embracing your inner rebel and living life to the fullest. Bye for now.