Intergenerational Wisdom: How Sky Bergman Connects Generations Through Storytelling

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On today's show, I'm speaking to the American photographer and filmmaker Sky Bergman.

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She's the creator of the award winning film Lives well Lived that celebrates the incredible wit and wisdom of adults aged between 75 and 100 years old.

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More recently, she's the author of the book Lives well Generations.

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During our chat, we spoke about the importance of intergenerational discussions to combat ageism in society.

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She also talks about how she sees aging and what she thinks are the damaging aspects of how we treat each other as we age.

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And we touched on what motivates her in her 60s.

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And we hear about her future film projects.

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But before we get started, can I ask that you subscribe, follow and rate us on your podcast app and share it with friends if you like it.

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Now, let's hear this week's podcast.

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Welcome to Retirement rebel life after 60.

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I'm your host, Siobhan Daniels.

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Join me on a journey to meet inspiring rebels who've redefined retirement.

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Together, we'll explore new passions, triumphs over challenges, and discover the vibrant possibilities of life after 60.

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This is about living boldly, not just aging.

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So are you ready to rebel?

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My guest today is Sky Bergman.

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One of the things I've been shouting about is intergenerational discussion and the importance of young and old, and I learned that from.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:01:56

So I'm absolutely thrilled that you've come on the podcast for me today.

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Can you just first of all, tell me what it means to you to be involved in the sort of the pro age movement?

Sky Bergman: 00:02:07

Well, I mean, I never thought I would be in the pro age movement.

Sky Bergman: 00:02:11

I think I stumbled on it by accident, really, because I was looking at approaching 50 and looking for positive role models of aging and just not finding them out there in the media.

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I mean, everything was about all the things we could do to avoid aging, all the creams we could use, and everything that would make us look youthful.

Sky Bergman: 00:02:28

And I wanted to own my age.

Sky Bergman: 00:02:30

I'm 58 now, and I, you know, I had this wonderful role model of my grandmother who was turning 100, and I wanted to own that.

Sky Bergman: 00:02:38

And let's face it, the one thing that we all have in common is that we age each and every day.

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So why not embrace it and celebrate it rather than dread it?

Sky Bergman: 00:02:48

And so that kind of got me into the pro aging movement, I think.

Sky Bergman: 00:02:52

You know, I always tell my students, the more personal a project, the more universal.

Sky Bergman: 00:02:56

And for me, this was something incredibly personal.

Sky Bergman: 00:02:59

So I'm happy to be leading the charge in the pro aging movement.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:03:04

How did it make you feel when you.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:03:06

You saw all these negative images about aging?

Sky Bergman: 00:03:09

Well, I think that it's depressing.

Sky Bergman: 00:03:11

I mean, let's face it, that's not.

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We don't want to have a depressing future in our.

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Down the pike.

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So we want to look.

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Be able to look at something that's positive.

Sky Bergman: 00:03:18

That's why I love what you're doing.

Sky Bergman: 00:03:20

I mean, there's so many people that are showing the world what older age can look like.

Sky Bergman: 00:03:26

And I think I am in the prime of my life in terms of the wisdom that I've gained, all the things that I've done.

Sky Bergman: 00:03:32

I'm much more comfortable in my own skin, and the world is my oyster at this point.

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I don't have the same heaviness that I had in terms of raising a family or having to work.

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And I get to do the things I love to do.

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So I'm embracing and enjoying this time of life.

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And I love seeing other people out there like you, who are also showing the world what older age can look like and what we have to look forward to.

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I just can't believe how excited I am about getting older and how much I'm enjoying life.

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You know, I feel I definitely have found my voice.

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I've found an incredible strength as I've got older that I didn't realize that I had all my life.

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Now you made the film Lives well Lived.

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How did that come about?

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Because I watched it, and it's these incredible people who just talk so vibrantly about what it is to be old.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:04:23

What was the original idea for it?

Sky Bergman: 00:04:25

Well, the original idea came out of a personal quest because I, as I mentioned, was looking at approaching 50 and having this amazing role model.

Sky Bergman: 00:04:33

My grandmother, who was 100 and still working out at the gym, I mean, she didn't start working out until she was 80.

Sky Bergman: 00:04:40

So she was a great example of it's never too late to start something new, even if it's an exercise routine.

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Oh, my God, there's hope for me yet.

Sky Bergman: 00:04:48

There's hope for everyone.

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And I remember I went to her 100th birthday party, and she was still working out at the gym.

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I filmed her at the gym.

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Cause I thought, oh, my goodness, nobody's gonna believe that my grandmother at 100 is still working out at the gym.

Sky Bergman: 00:05:00

And just as a throwaway comment, I said, can you give me some words of wisdom?

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And she said things like, live life to the limits and be kind and learn something new every day.

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And I thought I came back from that trip and I put a Little one minute clip of my grandmother at the gym together and all the things that she had said.

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And I thought, I wanna find other people out there like my grandmother.

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I know they exist.

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And So I spent four years interviewing 40 people that were 75 and older with a collective life experience of 3,000 years.

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And that's what I did.

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That was my personal quest, was to meet other people like my grandmother, who were living life to the limits, who were doing things, giving back in some way, learning something new every day, who were really fully engaged, who could be my role models.

Sky Bergman: 00:05:44

And what a wonderful gift that was to give myself four years to really fully immerse in that process and to meet these wonderful people, many of whom have become very dear friends.

Sky Bergman: 00:05:55

I always like to say my grandmother left me the greatest gift, which was the gift of 40 new grandparents.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:06:00

Oh, that's wonderful.

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I mean, that's the vital thing, isn't it?

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There are loads of people out there living vibrant lives, but we're just not seeing them, they're not being showcased.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:06:10

So we don't have the role models.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:06:13

You've got the role models, haven't you, in this film?

Sky Bergman: 00:06:16

Absolutely.

Sky Bergman: 00:06:16

I mean, not only that, but in my own life, I grew up not just with my grandparents, but my great grandmother was alive.

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So I grew up in a four generational household.

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Now, I know that that's not the norm, but I was certainly lucky enough to have that.

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And I think that it's so important to have people around us of all different ages.

Sky Bergman: 00:06:35

I think that that really makes our life much richer and fuller.

Sky Bergman: 00:06:38

And there can be examples at both age groups and like younger and older and what a wonderful world it is when we all come together.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:06:47

What was your childhood like?

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Like you say you lived with lots of different generations.

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How did that impact on you growing up?

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And what did you think about getting old and older people?

Sky Bergman: 00:06:57

Well, I.

Sky Bergman: 00:06:58

Because I was around older people my whole life, I mean, I never really thought about it.

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I thought of older age as something to enjoy.

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I saw these people having a great time and enjoying life.

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And so I thought of it as something to really fully embrace.

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And I think that all the people that I grew up around, like my grandparents and their friends that would come over and relatives and things like that, they all were doing really interesting things.

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You know, maybe they had finished their day job or their, you know, like regular work job and retired, but they were all still active and engaged and doing things and giving back in some way.

Sky Bergman: 00:07:36

And I think that that was certainly an inspiration and shaped the way That I felt about my own life and what was possible.

Sky Bergman: 00:07:43

So I feel very lucky.

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And I think that really the film has resonated with so many because of that.

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Because people see people that I interviewed for the film that went through some really traumatic times, but came through it and still remained positive.

Sky Bergman: 00:07:57

And I think, you know, my book Lives well Lived Generations.

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The tagline is purpose, positivity and resilience at every age.

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And I think that we can learn at every age from other people what that looks like.

Sky Bergman: 00:08:09

And in the book, we certainly give some helpful tips on how you can take those things that I learned from the film and from interviewing all those people and use them in your own, which I think is really important.

Sky Bergman: 00:08:21

And I think that's why the film resonates with people.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:08:24

What did you learn from the film?

Sky Bergman: 00:08:26

I learned three key things that everybody had in common, which was we all need a sense of purpose no matter what age we are, and that our sense of purpose can change over time.

Sky Bergman: 00:08:36

I think that when we retire from our regular career, a lot of times people don't know.

Sky Bergman: 00:08:41

They lose their sense of purpose.

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They lose a little bit of our identity is kind of tied to that.

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And so I think that that is a time where people kind of struggle a little bit.

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And so I.

Sky Bergman: 00:08:51

That having that sense of purpose and letting it be flexible so that it changes is really important.

Sky Bergman: 00:08:57

I think the second thing is that, and this has been proven in studies, that we need a sense of community, a sense of people around us that support us, whether it's friends or family.

Sky Bergman: 00:09:06

I mean, the surgeon general here in the United States found there was a study that it actually shortens our life more by loneliness than by smoking cigarettes, which I found to be amazing.

Sky Bergman: 00:09:18

Right.

Sky Bergman: 00:09:18

So we, you know, there's a loneliness.

Sky Bergman: 00:09:20

We talk about this loneliness epidemic.

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So what can we do to form a good support group of family or friends?

Siobhan Daniels: 00:09:27

That's incredible, isn't it?

Sky Bergman: 00:09:29

Yeah, it's amazing.

Sky Bergman: 00:09:30

I mean, you know, we hear about the loneliness epidemic, but really friends are a little bit of work.

Sky Bergman: 00:09:35

You know, they're not just gonna come to you.

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You have to figure out how you're gonna create your support group.

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And there's so many ways to do that.

Sky Bergman: 00:09:43

But I think being around people that are positive, that are like minded, certainly really helps us in terms of our lifespan and just in terms of having a good life, I think we are much happier when we are surround.

Sky Bergman: 00:09:55

And then lastly, I think was this sense of positivity and resilience going kind of hand in hand.

Sky Bergman: 00:10:01

And I'M often reminded of two people in the film.

Sky Bergman: 00:10:04

One is Lucky Louie, who was my favorite.

Sky Bergman: 00:10:06

I know you're not supposed to have favorites, but he was a pediatrician turned mozzarella maker.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:10:12

Yeah, I remember him.

Sky Bergman: 00:10:13

Yeah, he used to make mozzarellas for his daughter's deli.

Sky Bergman: 00:10:16

Every morning he'd get up at 5 in the morning and work out at the gym and then come back and make fresh mozzarella.

Sky Bergman: 00:10:20

Which if any of you have ever done that, that is a workout in and of itself.

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But he had a saying.

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He had a lot of sayings.

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I used to call them his Lewisms.

Sky Bergman: 00:10:29

But the one that really resonated with me is happiness is a state of mind.

Sky Bergman: 00:10:35

You can be happy with what you have or miserable with what you don't have.

Sky Bergman: 00:10:39

You decide.

Sky Bergman: 00:10:41

And I think that hearkens onto something that Evie Justison also said from the film, which is really, there's so many times in our lives where we can't control the things that are happening around us.

Sky Bergman: 00:10:51

But what we can control is the attitude of how we deal with those things.

Sky Bergman: 00:10:54

And I would add to that also how we reflect back on the things that have happened to us.

Sky Bergman: 00:10:59

I think that's equally as important moving forward.

Sky Bergman: 00:11:01

And so that resilience and positivity really are key, I think, in living a well lived life and being happy, really.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:11:09

But I also think you have to have a sort of resilience because society has already got preconceived ideas about A what you're gonna look like when you get old and B, what the heck you're gonna do.

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And it seems to be often if you deviate from what they decide you should be doing, then you're a bit of an eccentric or abnormal.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:11:30

And actually that's not true, is it?

Siobhan Daniels: 00:11:32

And your film's showing that.

Sky Bergman: 00:11:35

I think that that is the case because, you know, we think that maybe the media has led us to believe that.

Sky Bergman: 00:11:42

But I think that in showcasing people that are doing amazing things that are of every age, I think that's what's really important.

Sky Bergman: 00:11:49

And, you know, made the film.

Sky Bergman: 00:11:51

There weren't as now there's a lot more in the media about older adults doing amazing things.

Sky Bergman: 00:11:56

But when I started this, there really wasn't.

Sky Bergman: 00:11:58

And it was also very important to me that it was everyday people, that it wasn't, you know, it could be your neighbor, your aunt, your uncle, your grandparents.

Sky Bergman: 00:12:06

It was everyday people that I was interviewing.

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Because I would venture to say that everyone has an amazing story to tell.

Sky Bergman: 00:12:12

If we just take the time to listen.

Sky Bergman: 00:12:14

I think that that's really the key is that we don't often do that.

Sky Bergman: 00:12:18

There's so many amazing people out there.

Sky Bergman: 00:12:20

And, you know, it was wonderful adventure and journey to be able to meet all these people and to share their really positive stories.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:12:29

And that's one of the reasons why I decided that I wanted to do Retirement rebel Life after 60 was because I know there are loads of people out there living these kind of lives and just everyday ordinary people.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:12:42

And we just seem to be bombarded with celebrities all the time.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:12:46

Everything has to be celebrity led as if once they've done it, then it's a bonafide thing.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:12:52

And I wanted to just show that everyday people, we're doing it all the time.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:12:56

This is how we are aging now.

Sky Bergman: 00:12:59

Exactly.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:13:00

I spoke to you, what, a couple of years ago now?

Siobhan Daniels: 00:13:02

We've been friends for a few years when your film came out, because it came on my radar as it was just like a breath of fresh air to watch your film and see all these people doing that.

Sky Bergman: 00:13:12

Oh, I so appreciate that.

Sky Bergman: 00:13:14

And you know, it's amazing that the film has been out as long as it has and public broadcasting here in the US just renewed the license for it for another four years.

Sky Bergman: 00:13:22

So it obviously has struck a chord.

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I think that's why I had so many people say, please write a book about your experiences and what you learned along the way.

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And I will also say that when I was writing the book, I was a fellow for Cogenerate, which is all about connecting generations.

Sky Bergman: 00:13:39

And I realized that a really important thing for me and any of the work that I do moving forward is all going to be about connecting generations.

Sky Bergman: 00:13:46

Because I do feel like one of the reasons that ageism exists is that we live in such an age segregated world and whatever we can do to bring generations together is very important.

Sky Bergman: 00:13:56

And so I spent the last two years interviewing people around the globe who are doing just amazing work connecting generations, whether it's through an intergenerational symphony or climate change, or voting rights, all different ways that generations are coming together.

Sky Bergman: 00:14:13

And it was amazing to meet these really remarkable forces of nature in this intergenerational work.

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And now, of course, it's becoming a buzzword.

Sky Bergman: 00:14:23

It wasn't when I started working on this, but I think more are jumping on that bandwagon and that's wonderful.

Sky Bergman: 00:14:30

I love seeing that.

Sky Bergman: 00:14:31

So I'm super excited to showcase all these people.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:14:35

You were one of the first people that flagged up to me the importance of intergeneration.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:14:40

I'd been What I would class myself as a pro age campaigner for sort of about four years.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:14:45

When I first got chatting to you and when you said to me about intergenerational dialogue and conversations being very important, it made me realize that that's something that I need to investigate, I needed to look at.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:14:59

And it really has impacted me on how I'm behaving, how I'm championing now.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:15:06

And I'm actually saying I want to do intergenerational dinner parties.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:15:09

But it was definitely being influenced by you.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:15:12

And I've read your book now.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:15:14

I've just finished it.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:15:14

Lives well lived generations.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:15:16

And it just screams to me.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:15:18

It's just so logical, all the things that you say in there.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:15:22

The young people, you know, it's so important cause they can change things for the future, for when.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:15:27

And they're the older people of the future, can't they?

Sky Bergman: 00:15:30

Absolutely.

Sky Bergman: 00:15:31

And I think that we need to also remember that ageism exists in both directions, so it's directed at young people.

Sky Bergman: 00:15:37

We tend to think about it just as being directed at older people.

Sky Bergman: 00:15:40

But certainly there's ageism in both directions.

Sky Bergman: 00:15:43

And so I think that when the intergenerational projects that work the best are when people are coming together for a common goal, whether it's like a symphony where you produce music together, or climate change where you're really trying to make a difference in the world.

Sky Bergman: 00:16:00

That's where I see generations coming together to make a really positive impact.

Sky Bergman: 00:16:05

And in the doing something together, they get to know people from other generations.

Sky Bergman: 00:16:10

And all of a sudden the age doesn't really matter of who people are.

Sky Bergman: 00:16:14

You know, it's just about people.

Sky Bergman: 00:16:15

And I think that that's what I love, when we stop labeling all the generations and we just come together as people for a common cause.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:16:24

But I think one of the problems that I've been highlighting when I've been giving my talks around the country is that we have ageism and bullying in the workplace, particularly for older people.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:16:35

And one of the problems is the younger women in the workplace see it happening, but they daredn't call it out because they think it's going to impact their career progression.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:16:47

And the older women, they now in England can't get their pensions till they're nearly 70.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:16:52

And so they're hanging on with their fingernails to a job in a toxic environment because they're scared they're gonna lose their job and they'll find it difficult as an older woman to find another job.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:17:04

So I'm saying to people, you know, that importance of what I learned from you, that intergenerational conversation to support one another, to call it out.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:17:13

If an older person sees ageism for somebody younger, and if they see it for somebody older.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:17:18

Is that the same situation that you have in America?

Sky Bergman: 00:17:20

I would say it's similar.

Sky Bergman: 00:17:22

And I think that, you know, it is definitely more difficult for women in particular when they reach a certain age.

Sky Bergman: 00:17:28

Sometimes in the.

Sky Bergman: 00:17:29

I was lucky that I didn't have that because I'm in an educational institution.

Sky Bergman: 00:17:34

And so I didn't really feel that personally myself.

Sky Bergman: 00:17:36

But I have seen that with friends and other people and other industries where you kind of age out at a certain point, especially being in California, we're in a tech society.

Sky Bergman: 00:17:46

So you really.

Sky Bergman: 00:17:47

I mean, you see that even my.

Sky Bergman: 00:17:48

I have a brother who's almost 20 years younger than I am, and he's feeling like he's an old man now in the tech world and kind of wondering if he's going to be aging out.

Sky Bergman: 00:17:58

And so I think that there are some really interesting programs that are happening.

Sky Bergman: 00:18:02

Like Land O Lakes, that's a company here in the US does something called reverse mentoring, which I love, where they bring older and younger people together for mentoring, but it's the young people that are mentoring the older people.

Sky Bergman: 00:18:15

It really is going in both directions.

Sky Bergman: 00:18:16

But it is.

Sky Bergman: 00:18:17

I think a lot of times when we think of mentor, we think of an older person mentoring a younger person.

Sky Bergman: 00:18:22

And I think it's nice to flip that and change that dynamic.

Sky Bergman: 00:18:26

I think when we do more of that, we're gonna see less ageism in the workplace.

Sky Bergman: 00:18:30

When we have programs that bring generations together and make it a more level playing field, we're gonna see a better workplace.

Sky Bergman: 00:18:39

And I.

Sky Bergman: 00:18:40

You know, one of my favorite quotes is, and I think this is especially true for people as they're aging, they can kind of pass the torch.

Sky Bergman: 00:18:49

Pass the knowledge is a candle loses nothing by lighting another candle.

Sky Bergman: 00:18:54

And we both are bright.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:18:56

Oh, I like that.

Sky Bergman: 00:18:57

And I think that if we can do more of that.

Sky Bergman: 00:19:00

I love that metaphor.

Sky Bergman: 00:19:02

What a beautiful world it could become.

Sky Bergman: 00:19:04

But I do think it starts with some commonalities and bringing people together so that, you know, you mentioned about having dinner parties and you bring people together over food, breaking bread, everybody eats.

Sky Bergman: 00:19:16

You bring people together over food, and it just lightens the mood.

Sky Bergman: 00:19:20

And all of a sudden you can go into deeper conversations because you're coming together over something that we all do, which is eat together.

Sky Bergman: 00:19:27

Everyone loves food.

Sky Bergman: 00:19:29

One of the things that I have done in my own life, because I was in my 40s and not feeling like I had enough friends.

Sky Bergman: 00:19:36

So I started doing a women's dinner every.

Sky Bergman: 00:19:38

The first Monday of every month.

Sky Bergman: 00:19:39

And I have women.

Sky Bergman: 00:19:40

I've been doing it for over 10 years.

Sky Bergman: 00:19:42

And I have women from the ages of 20 to in their 90s that come to this dinner.

Sky Bergman: 00:19:46

And it's just a wonderful way to support each other and to come together.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:19:50

I think it's incredible.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:19:52

I may have even got the idea from you mentioning that when we've chatted.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:19:55

I don't know.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:19:56

But I'm gonna run with it and go forward with it.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:19:59

What I'd like to do is get the younger women three questions for the older women.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:20:03

The older women three questions for the younger women.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:20:05

Chuck them in a jar.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:20:06

And as you're breaking bread and eating and just relaxing through the evening, ask each other questions and find out what we're really thinking.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:20:13

Because I think there is this big problem here, but none of us are talking about it.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:20:17

And we really do need to get the conversation going, don't we?

Sky Bergman: 00:20:21

Absolutely.

Sky Bergman: 00:20:22

Yes.

Sky Bergman: 00:20:22

I think that that's super important.

Sky Bergman: 00:20:24

Yeah.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:20:25

And I think too often, though, I want the younger generation involved.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:20:29

But what I do feel is you can't talk for the older generation until they've walked the walk, really.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:20:35

Till they've been there.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:20:37

That feeling of being marginalized and feeling bullied and feeling voiceless is so damaging to you as a woman that I think you just can't comprehend it till you're there.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:20:48

So I think to be able to explain to the younger women that that is a profound problem, and to say to them, you could get to this stage and be like that, what are you gonna do to change it is very important.

Sky Bergman: 00:21:00

Absolutely.

Sky Bergman: 00:21:00

I couldn't agree more.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:21:01

So how are you being received when you're trying to introduce intergenerational dialogue?

Siobhan Daniels: 00:21:06

Are people receptive to it?

Sky Bergman: 00:21:43

Yeah, I think people are very receptive.

Sky Bergman: 00:21:45

And, you know, I would say that one of the things.

Sky Bergman: 00:21:48

One of the ways that I also do it is in my filmmaking.

Sky Bergman: 00:21:50

I'm working on two new films that have an intergenerational twist to them.

Sky Bergman: 00:21:54

And I think that storytelling is always a nice way to bring in this idea of connecting generations.

Sky Bergman: 00:22:01

So the first film is called the Primetime Band, and it's about musicians who.

Sky Bergman: 00:22:06

Well, they played, like, in junior high and high school when they were younger, put away their instruments, and now are coming back to music later in life.

Sky Bergman: 00:22:13

And they're made.

Sky Bergman: 00:22:14

It's about 75 people that are in their 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s, primarily.

Sky Bergman: 00:22:19

Yay.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:22:19

That's amazing.

Sky Bergman: 00:22:21

Yeah.

Sky Bergman: 00:22:21

I mean, it's like all the things that I loved about Lives Are Lived is showing up in this new film that I'm doing, which is, you know, this sense of purpose, getting together to make music together, this sense of resilience.

Sky Bergman: 00:22:34

Because many of the people in the band, they have ailments in the way that they used to.

Sky Bergman: 00:22:38

So, I mean, there's one woman who plays a flute.

Sky Bergman: 00:22:40

She can't hold it horizontally anymore.

Sky Bergman: 00:22:43

She figured out a way to get a headstock so she could play it vertically, like.

Sky Bergman: 00:22:46

Amazing.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:22:47

Oh, amazing.

Sky Bergman: 00:22:48

It's incredible.

Sky Bergman: 00:22:50

And a number of these people are also part of a group called the Music Van that goes into elementary schools in third grade here, which is around eight years old, and introduces those students to music, many of whom who would never have the opportunity to pick up an instrument in their lives.

Sky Bergman: 00:23:06

And I love this cycle of older people coming back to music later in life and then paying it forward, introducing it to young children early in life.

Sky Bergman: 00:23:14

And you never know what that might spark.

Sky Bergman: 00:23:16

I mean, the joy that these kids have when they pick up a trombone or a French horn or a violin is palpable.

Sky Bergman: 00:23:22

It's so, so wonderful.

Sky Bergman: 00:23:23

It's just been a blast to work on that one.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:23:26

I just love the idea of all these old school friends getting together and not being able to play the instruments quite the way they did with all the rakes and pains.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:23:34

I just think it sounds like a ball.

Sky Bergman: 00:23:36

It is a ball.

Sky Bergman: 00:23:36

And it's really a sense of community.

Sky Bergman: 00:23:38

I mean, they take care of one another.

Sky Bergman: 00:23:39

If somebody's.

Sky Bergman: 00:23:40

They send them food, they send cards.

Sky Bergman: 00:23:43

I mean, it's just such a wonderful, wonderful community.

Sky Bergman: 00:23:46

And I was a band geek.

Sky Bergman: 00:23:47

I played flute, clarinet and bassoon when I was in high school, and I still play flute and guitar.

Sky Bergman: 00:23:53

So I have sat in with them playing my flute a couple of times, and it's just a blast.

Sky Bergman: 00:23:57

I love the camaraderie and that feeling of, you know, when you make music together, you let go of yourself a little bit and you're part of something bigger than yourself.

Sky Bergman: 00:24:06

And that is a wonderful feeling to be part of.

Sky Bergman: 00:24:09

So.

Sky Bergman: 00:24:09

So I have immensely enjoyed working on that project.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:24:12

So when can we expect to see that film?

Sky Bergman: 00:24:15

in film festival starting in: 2025

Sky Bergman: 00:24:19

So I'm gonna hopefully premiere it at the Santa Barbara International Film Festival.

Sky Bergman: 00:24:23

Cause the band is from Santa Barbara and they're celebrating their 30th anniversary next year.

Sky Bergman: 00:24:28

So I'm hoping to launch it with their 30th anniversary.

Sky Bergman: 00:24:32

That would be a blast.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:24:33

What's the other film that you're doing?

Siobhan Daniels: 00:24:34

It's a Japanese film.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:24:36

Is it?

Sky Bergman: 00:24:36

Yeah.

Sky Bergman: 00:24:36

The other film is called Mochisuki.

Sky Bergman: 00:24:39

And if you haven't heard of what that is, Mochi Suki quite literally is making mochi.

Sky Bergman: 00:24:45

That's what it means.

Sky Bergman: 00:24:45

And it's a Japanese tradition of making mochi to bring in the new year and as a sign of hope and good luck for the new year.

Sky Bergman: 00:24:53

And mochi is literally steamed rice that is then pounded until it gets to this consistency that's kind of like bread dough and very smooth.

Sky Bergman: 00:25:02

So you don't see any of the rice in it at all.

Sky Bergman: 00:25:04

And then they form these round mochi balls.

Sky Bergman: 00:25:07

What I love about that, I think.

Sky Bergman: 00:25:08

Cause I grew up on my grandmother's kitchen, so that was where the wisdom and the love and the laughter all came while we were cooking together.

Sky Bergman: 00:25:15

And I love seeing generations come together through food.

Sky Bergman: 00:25:18

And I would venture to guess that anybody that's listening right now can think back in their own memories of something that your family or your friends all gather to do on a regular basis around food.

Sky Bergman: 00:25:30

And so we're back to food again, bringing people together.

Sky Bergman: 00:25:34

But that's been a really wonderful project.

Sky Bergman: 00:25:36

ting here in the US in May of: 2025

Sky Bergman: 00:25:45

But we also have a sneak preview of it up on our website right now.

Sky Bergman: 00:25:49

Just a 20 minute sneak preview.

Sky Bergman: 00:25:50

So if you're interested, you can check it out there.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:25:53

But what's that got to do with sort of aging and positive aging?

Sky Bergman: 00:25:58

Well, I think that it's not necessarily about positive aging, but it's about generations coming together.

Sky Bergman: 00:26:03

And I think for me, anything that I do going forward is going to have some twist where it's about connecting generations.

Sky Bergman: 00:26:10

So it's very much about the older adults that are passing down their wisdom and their knowledge.

Sky Bergman: 00:26:16

I mean, this is a ceremony that you have to learn how to do it.

Sky Bergman: 00:26:19

There's a whole ritual of how you do this thing.

Sky Bergman: 00:26:21

And so it's wonderful to see the elder adults and the kids and everybody interacting.

Sky Bergman: 00:26:25

And so.

Sky Bergman: 00:26:26

And I think in Japanese society, older adults or elders are more revered than they are in many other cultures.

Sky Bergman: 00:26:32

And you definitely, when you're watching the film, you see that and you can feel that and how important it is to keep that tradition alive and have that passed down from one generation to the next.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:26:45

Do you think we've forgotten to respect our elders and we've forgotten to realize the importance of the wisdom that they have to pass down to us.

Sky Bergman: 00:26:55

I do think there is a little bit of that because we are not living with our elders.

Sky Bergman: 00:27:00

I mean, I was lucky, like I said, that I lived with my grandparents and even great grandmother, Remember, sitting on the ottoman while she was teaching me to knit and crochet, and she only spoke in Italian and I only spoke to her in English.

Sky Bergman: 00:27:11

But we had this, you know, I had a reverence of my great grandmother.

Sky Bergman: 00:27:15

I mean, it's just I loved listening to her stories.

Sky Bergman: 00:27:17

And I don't.

Sky Bergman: 00:27:18

I think that I had that experience, but I don't think a lot of people do have that experience.

Sky Bergman: 00:27:22

And that is really why I've been pushing so hard for these intergenerational connections that happen.

Sky Bergman: 00:27:27

And, in fact, we've been doing that with the Lives Will Live film for almost a decade at this point, where we show the film to older adults and students and pair them up.

Sky Bergman: 00:27:37

And they use the questions that I came up with when I was interviewing all the people in the film to get to know each other as a framework to get to know each other.

Sky Bergman: 00:27:43

And it is remarkable to see the relationships that are formed that never would have happened otherwise, because we don't move out of our comfort zone and necessarily seek out people of other ages to be our friends.

Sky Bergman: 00:27:55

And so it's wonderful to have this in kind of the context of a classroom.

Sky Bergman: 00:27:59

So the students have to do this project, and then they love it, and then they seek out other older adults because they've done it once, and it opens the door and the floodgates for that to happen.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:28:09

Would you like to see your book Lives well Lived Generations being read in schools?

Sky Bergman: 00:28:14

I would love that.

Sky Bergman: 00:28:15

And in fact, I mean, one of the wonderful things that's happened with the film is public broadcasting has a learning media channel here in the US I think.

Sky Bergman: 00:28:25

I'm not sure if it's available in the uk, but it's.

Sky Bergman: 00:28:27

We did a whole learning module that's available for educators in elementary schools to use, and there's free clips from the film, and there's core standards that they can just plug into a classroom.

Sky Bergman: 00:28:38

So I'm really proud of that and excited that that's available, but I would love to see something like this happen on a much wider scale.

Sky Bergman: 00:28:45

Absolutely.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:28:47

Because I feel that one of the solutions to the problem of ageism and the problem of how we're not allowing people to age the way that they are aging in society is, is, you know, the younger generation are being taught that they're almost Being brainwashed into negative thoughts and images about aging.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:29:05

They're fearful of aging and I think we need to get in there early, teach them about aging well and kindness.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:29:13

Just be kind to one another.

Sky Bergman: 00:29:15

Absolutely.

Sky Bergman: 00:29:15

And there's been studies that have shown that ageism starts at the age of 4 years old, that people, that kids already have ageist beliefs at the age.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:29:24

Of 4 years old.

Sky Bergman: 00:29:25

I firmly believe that's because of the media and because of what people are seeing.

Sky Bergman: 00:29:29

We're barraged by images, we're barraged by ads all the time.

Sky Bergman: 00:29:32

And it's amazing that a 4 year old has already developed some of those ageist beliefs.

Sky Bergman: 00:29:39

I mean think about in the US and I don't know what it's like in the UK they have this project in elementary schools which is terrible.

Sky Bergman: 00:29:45

On the hundredth day of class they have kids dress up like what they think 100 year old would look like and they end up with like, yeah, with like walkers and you know, the whole every stereotype you can think about.

Sky Bergman: 00:29:59

I pose the question, why not use the lives will live film and really see what a hundred year old can look like rather than looking at the worst possible negative stereotype.

Sky Bergman: 00:30:08

And you know, these stereotypes happen in birthday cards, they happen in ads, they happen in.

Sky Bergman: 00:30:13

Even in our own language, we really need to think about the own words that we use to describe older adults and ourselves as we're aging.

Sky Bergman: 00:30:22

And I think that words matter.

Sky Bergman: 00:30:23

We need to think about that because as we're talking to other people and in particular younger generations, we are passing that down to.

Sky Bergman: 00:30:31

So we need to be very careful about how we talk about aging and what words we use and what stereotypes we say.

Sky Bergman: 00:30:40

And like you were saying about in the workplace, you know, we can stop some of that if we have discussions and dialogue and we have conversation.

Sky Bergman: 00:30:47

I think the more that we talk about it, the better off we all are.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:30:51

But I think it's this fear.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:30:52

It's like in the cosmetic industry they tap into our fear about getting old and then people subscribe to whatever it is they have to offer us thinking that it's going change and it's not going to change how we age at all.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:31:05

Really.

Sky Bergman: 00:31:06

It really isn't.

Sky Bergman: 00:31:08

And I think that people spend a lot of time, energy and money trying to stay more youthful rather than enjoying and embracing what they have.

Sky Bergman: 00:31:17

I mean I have never been happier than I am right now.

Sky Bergman: 00:31:20

There is that U shaped curve of happiness and I definitely feel like I'm on that end of it where the happiness is quotient is Going way up.

Sky Bergman: 00:31:29

And I, I think that if I had been trying to chase looking youthful, those kind of things, I wouldn't be happy.

Sky Bergman: 00:31:36

You know, the media kind of keeps us from being happy at a time where really we should be at our happiest.

Sky Bergman: 00:31:41

We have the least responsibilities.

Sky Bergman: 00:31:43

We probably, if we've been lucky, we had a good job and we've saved and we can enjoy life in a way that we couldn't before.

Sky Bergman: 00:31:50

And I know for me, I am not worried about what anyone else thinks about the way that I am in the world.

Sky Bergman: 00:31:55

I know I live my best life and I'm kind to everyone and I do things the way that I want, but I am okay with being the odd person.

Sky Bergman: 00:32:02

I don't really care what people think anymore.

Sky Bergman: 00:32:05

And that's so liberating to be in that spot where you, you know, I think when we're younger, we really care about what other people think, whether it's because we're worried about our job or having friends or whatever the reason.

Sky Bergman: 00:32:16

And I think at least for me and I, I know for a lot of my friends that are my same age group, that is gone.

Sky Bergman: 00:32:23

We just care about being happy and cherishing our friendships and doing the things that we love doing and giving back in some.

Sky Bergman: 00:32:31

Those are the things that become important and what a wonderful time in our lives that is.

Sky Bergman: 00:32:36

So why not look forward to it?

Siobhan Daniels: 00:32:38

Oh my goodness, you are absolutely singing from the same hymn sheet as me.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:32:43

I mean, I've been talking recently at loads of festivals about my book.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:32:46

And the majority of people I've been meeting have been in their sort of late 50s, 60s and 70s, just having a ball.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:32:54

We're all up there at the front of the dance floor jumping around and having a great time.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:32:58

And those that haven't got the energy or the ride arthritic or whatever and they can't do it.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:33:02

They're sat on the chairs, you know, shaking their arms, having a good time.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:33:05

Because we don't care what anybody thinks.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:33:09

We're determined to age the best way possible.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:33:11

Now, your book lives well lived generations.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:33:14

What are the main messages that you're giving to people in both the younger generation and the older generation from that book?

Siobhan Daniels: 00:33:21

What do you want them to take away from it?

Sky Bergman: 00:33:23

Yeah, that's a really good question.

Sky Bergman: 00:33:25

I think, you know, the first half of the book is really all about lessons that I learned along the way of making the film.

Sky Bergman: 00:33:30

So you even just being a first time filmmaker, how do you fund a film?

Sky Bergman: 00:33:34

How do you make something?

Sky Bergman: 00:33:35

How do you make your Dream come true.

Sky Bergman: 00:33:36

I mean, really, for me, this was a dream come true.

Sky Bergman: 00:33:40

And then all the lessons about resilience, positivity, and purpose, I think that's also part of it.

Sky Bergman: 00:33:45

And people can really, hopefully take some of those messages away and bring them into their own lives.

Sky Bergman: 00:33:50

And then the second half of the book, I hope to inspire people to connect generations.

Sky Bergman: 00:33:56

And that's why I highlighted 40 people around the globe that are doing incredible things that are connecting generations.

Sky Bergman: 00:34:01

So maybe you reach about one of those organizations and you think, oh, I want to be involved in that.

Sky Bergman: 00:34:06

Or you think, wow, what can I do on my end to have a friend from another generation?

Sky Bergman: 00:34:11

It could be as simple as that.

Sky Bergman: 00:34:12

But I hope that people start looking at making connections with other generations and what we can do to make this world less divided and more cohesive and embracing.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:34:24

Do you think that things will change?

Sky Bergman: 00:34:27

I think they already are.

Sky Bergman: 00:34:28

I mean, I am really very heartened by the fact that I am seeing.

Sky Bergman: 00:34:32

Seeing more about intergenerational work coming to light.

Sky Bergman: 00:34:36

And that, like I said, wasn't the case maybe five years ago, but I see a lot more things that are happening that are highlighting how generations are coming together.

Sky Bergman: 00:34:45

I also see a lot more in the media about older adults that are doing amazing things.

Sky Bergman: 00:34:52

And that was just not there at all either.

Sky Bergman: 00:34:55

And so I do think that things are changing.

Sky Bergman: 00:34:57

And that really is heartwarming to me because I've been working on this, in this space, as you said, for so long, that to start seeing some of these positive changes is remarkable.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:35:09

It is great to see, having known you a few years, to see that it's all sort of really taking a momentum now and you're finding your tribe and people are listening.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:35:19

I'm absolutely thrilled for you.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:35:21

But when you were younger and you thought about reaching 60, 60, did you envisage that you'd feel and see and, you know, life the way it is now, or did you think it would be something completely different, approaching 60?

Sky Bergman: 00:35:35

Well, that's a good question.

Sky Bergman: 00:35:37

And I think that I've had some amazing role models in my great grandmother, my grandmother and my mom.

Sky Bergman: 00:35:43

I mean, my mom moved out onto a sailboat when she turned 50 and sailed for 20 years.

Sky Bergman: 00:35:48

So I think that I had some incredible role models in my own life of what it could look like as I aged.

Sky Bergman: 00:35:57

And so I don't think I ever really dreaded aging.

Sky Bergman: 00:36:01

I was always looking forward to it because I had these strong women role models in my life who bucked the system at every turn.

Sky Bergman: 00:36:08

I mean, at that Point.

Sky Bergman: 00:36:09

When my mom went sailing, there were no cell phones.

Sky Bergman: 00:36:12

There was no way that she was gonna get ahold of us, but off she went.

Sky Bergman: 00:36:15

And how cool was that?

Siobhan Daniels: 00:36:17

I need to talk to your mum on this podcast.

Sky Bergman: 00:36:21

Absolutely.

Sky Bergman: 00:36:22

So, you know, I'm not sure what I envisioned for when I was going to be older, but I always knew that I was gonna retire in my mid-50s.

Sky Bergman: 00:36:30

That's when my grandmother retired and my mom was already living on a sailboat at 50.

Sky Bergman: 00:36:35

And so I just always had this vision that I was gonna do something different when I was in my 50s.

Sky Bergman: 00:36:43

And that's kind of what I did.

Sky Bergman: 00:36:44

I retired at 56.

Sky Bergman: 00:36:46

I think I hung on one more year cause of the pandemic teaching.

Sky Bergman: 00:36:50

But I have never looked back.

Sky Bergman: 00:36:51

I've really enjoyed.

Sky Bergman: 00:36:52

It's given me the space and the time to do all these things that I really am passionate.

Sky Bergman: 00:36:56

And I realized that I am an educator in many other ways.

Sky Bergman: 00:37:00

Even though I might not be in the classroom, I am educating in so many other different ways.

Sky Bergman: 00:37:04

And so for me, I think it's maybe better than what I envisioned, if that's possible.

Sky Bergman: 00:37:10

That's a good thing, right?

Siobhan Daniels: 00:37:12

Yeah, it certainly is for me.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:37:14

I'm living life.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:37:15

I'm loving it now.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:37:16

I'm a retirement rebel.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:37:17

A self confessed retirement rebel.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:37:19

And so I ask all my guests one question.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:37:23

When was the last time that you did anything rebellious or felt rebellious?

Sky Bergman: 00:37:29

Wow.

Sky Bergman: 00:37:29

For me, like making a film and writing a book, I'm dyslexic, so the fact that I wrote a book is like, I guess that's my way of being rebellious.

Sky Bergman: 00:37:39

Or I think it's more fearless, like overcoming my fear.

Sky Bergman: 00:37:44

And I have another quote that I'm hanging over my desk, which is that your decisions should be made not based on your fear, but on your curiosity.

Sky Bergman: 00:37:53

And I think that, you know, that is something like I've always tried to follow my curiosity.

Sky Bergman: 00:37:59

It's led me into places that, oh my goodness, like making a film or writing a book.

Sky Bergman: 00:38:04

Never would have thought those things would happen.

Sky Bergman: 00:38:06

So I think that would be my rebellious thing is like being almost rebellious against my own nature, which would be I'm an introvert.

Sky Bergman: 00:38:14

And so for me, it's like getting out there, putting myself out there, doing the things that I love, even though I have no clue of how to do them.

Sky Bergman: 00:38:23

I think that's my rebellious streak.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:38:26

That sounds rebellious enough for me.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:38:27

You're in my tribe.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:38:28

You're in the rebellious rebellion.

Sky Bergman: 00:38:31

I love it.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:38:32

I love that.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:38:33

One last thing.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:38:34

If you had to give one message about ageism and the damage that it has to people in life.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:38:41

What would you say to.

Sky Bergman: 00:38:42

Well, I think that you shouldn't judge somebody based on a number.

Sky Bergman: 00:38:46

I mean, I think that we tend to look at a number and think about and have these stereotypes in our minds of what that means that person is capable of or is not capable of.

Sky Bergman: 00:38:57

And I think everyone is individual and you need to know each person on an individual level and not make decisions based on age.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:39:06

That's lovely.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:39:07

Thank you so much, guy, for joining me tonight.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:39:10

I mean, I'm just thrilled that you're gonna be on my podcast and sort of lead the start of my next series.

Sky Bergman: 00:39:15

I love it.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:39:17

I hope that you enjoyed that conversation with Sky Bergman as much as I did.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:39:22

I wanted to take a moment, though, to reflect on it and share with you what I'm going to take away from chatting with Sky.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:39:29

I learned that this obsession with anti aging is a worldwide problem and it really is impacting women and we need to do more to showcase the realities of aging.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:39:40

I feel strongly that the crux of the issue is teaching youngsters not to fear getting old, but to embrace the positives and things that can come with ageing and not to subscribe to the ageist stereotypes.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:39:53

Like Sky, I want to change this.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:39:56

And like her, I'll continue to shout from the rooftops that we can actually look at life differently, think outside the box and allow everyone, everyone to age the way that best suits them.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:40:08

I feel that there's a sea change coming though, but it's very gradual and we need to build up more momentum if we're ever truly going to embrace the positive aging message.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:40:20

Next week I'll be speaking to Alex Rotas, who's a renowned photographer who challenges stereotypes about aging through her incredible photographs and films.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:40:29

She travels the world, photograph and speaking about older people.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:40:33

She's also produced a powerful film called Older and more recently a documentary called Younger.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:40:39

I hope you enjoy listening to our chat.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:40:44

Thank you so much for joining me on today's retirement rebel life after 60.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:40:48

I'm truly grateful for your time and your willingness to embark on this journey with me.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:40:53

If today's conversation sparks something within you, or if you've your own Rebel story to share, I'd love to hear from you.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:41:01

Please reach out through our social media channels or email and let's keep the conversation going.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:41:06

Email us on podcastetirementrebel.co.uk and remember, if you found value in our time together today, consider sharing this episode with a friend who might also enjoy and benefit from our Retirement Rebel community.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:41:21

Spreading the word helps us grow and continue to challenge the narrative around Life After 60.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:41:27

All of our details can be found on RetirementRebel.co.uk Retirement Rebel Life After 60 is written and hosted by me, Siobhan Daniels, and produced by the incredibly talented Matt Cheney.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:41:42

Join me again next week for another episode.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:41:45

Until then, keep embracing your inner Rebel and living life to the fullest.

Siobhan Daniels: 00:41:50

Bye for now.